Tuesday, 2015-03-03
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| fontana | http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-rival-gitorious-will-shut-june-1/ | 13:47 |
|---|---|---|
| Calinou | check out http://notabug.org/ | 13:47 |
| bkuhn | Actually, for the Guide, I will just go ahead and use Kallithea like I originally wanted to, but mlinksva talked me out of. :) | 13:48 |
| bkuhn | Now change in facts makes it clear we have to put that on the critical path for copyleft.org before June. | 13:48 |
| bkuhn | I'm not going to use Abandon-ware. :) | 13:49 |
| bkuhn | nor Shareware, which is what GitLab ultimately is | 13:49 |
| Calinou | yeah, GitLab sucks actually due to that | 13:50 |
| Calinou | self-hosting Gitorious seems to be a bad idea | 13:50 |
| Calinou | as it'll probably be abandoned | 13:50 |
| Calinou | (it wasn't good software to begin with) | 13:50 |
| mlinksva | i still think using kallithea is a bad idea. my argument then was 1) bkuhn has no time for extra tasks 2) self-hosted kallithea is not an example that can be followed by almost anyone making a choice about where to put their project. gitorious.org hosting at the time was a viable choice (though still a hard one), and 3) goad bkuhn into thinking about the need for a nonprofit-run centralized git hosting service that offers github, bitbucket etc real | 14:14 |
| mlinksva | competition. | 14:14 |
| mlinksva | what has changed is gitorious.org hosting no longer an option | 14:14 |
| mlinksva | the obvious thing is self-hosting gitlab ce, which lots of people are doing (ie is a vialbe option) and is probably a grave threat to github's business | 14:15 |
| mlinksva | i don't have any confidence kallithea is going to become a viable option without substantial resources dedicated to it, including selling it, and i see no plan to make that happen | 14:16 |
| mlinksva | and kallithea is not even a good poster child for free-software-needs-free-tools, as the poster has a massive irony sticker on it (bitbucket) | 14:16 |
| bkuhn | mlinksva: if I have the false dichotomy of self hosted Gitlab vs. self-hosted Kallithea, I pick the latter for simple reasons that (a) I don't want to prop up Gitlab's enterprise business (notwithstanding threat to Github -- choice of masters is no choice at all) and (b) Kallithea is a Conservancy project I want to support. | 14:19 |
| fontana | then Conservancy can say it "eats its own dog food" :/ | 14:19 |
| bkuhn | In many ways, Gitlab's business model is more insidious because it's shareware-like. Github at least is cetralized and obviously proprietary. | 14:19 |
| bkuhn | fontana: I particularly hate that phrase now that I am a dog owner. We buy pretty fancy food for our dogs. But I turn my face away when I deflate the bag to tie it back up each morning when I feed them; I would *not* eat the stuff. | 14:20 |
| fontana | bkuhn: I've always hated the phrase. I think I first encountered it when working on the Blackboard re-exam at SFLC | 14:21 |
| mindspillage | FWIW, I heard a non-US person confused about the phrase, thinking it had a negative connotation--as if your product is crap ("dog food", basically inedible) and you're going to use it anyway because you're obligated to. | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | i have the impression self-hosting gitlab is trivial. is that the case for kallithea? by not promoting a viable faif option, you are supporting both github and gitlab business of selling proprietary software. i'd love it if i were them to have free software advocates squirreled away not competing except expressively. anyway i don't expect to convince you especially given that kallithea is a conservancy project. so i'd like to see instead a plan to | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | make kallithea competitive so as to not fall into trap of supporting github by not competing with it. | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | i have the impression self-hosting gitlab is trivial. is that the case for kallithea? by not promoting a viable faif option, you are supporting both github and gitlab business of selling proprietary software. i'd love it if i were them to have free software advocates squirreled away not competing except expressively. anyway i don't expect to convince you especially given that kallithea is a conservancy project. so i'd like to see instead a plan to make | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | kallithea competitive so as to not fall into trap of supporting github by not competing with it. | 14:23 |
| fontana | mindspillage: it took me a long time to understand the phrase for that reason, and I am a native speaker :) | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | . | 14:23 |
| mlinksva | oops connection problem apoligies for dupe | 14:24 |
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| mlinksva | btw any plan to include offensive faif fork strategy in the guide? with kallithea being the case study. relatedly, is anyone making a business of kallithea? selling services to rhodecode customers presumably? | 14:37 |
| * fontana initially assumed mlinksva was referring to notion of fontana fork of Guide hosted on github :) | 14:39 | |
| mlinksva | :) | 14:39 |
| veleiro | Did gitorious developers give up copyrights to Gitlab? I dont understand the announcement besides a victory dance for Gitlab? | 14:39 |
| mlinksva | i suspect acquiring customers > acquiring copyright in this case | 14:40 |
| kuno | veleiro: This seems more about gitlab buying gitorious' customers, I don't think they need or want tho gitorious codebase. | 14:40 |
| fontana | https://about.gitlab.com/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-gitorious/ | 14:42 |
| fontana | veleiro: I suspect they are acquiring Gitorious copyrights. Would be strange if not. | 14:46 |
| Calinou | haha, the background image of that blog post is from Unsplash, I recognize it | 14:56 |
| pehjota | I don't think Gitorious had a CLA or CAA in place; did it? If not, the Gitorious AS copyrights can't be used by GitLab B.V. to make non-free versions of Gitorious, without removing contributed code (nor could Gitorious AS make non-AGPL-licensed versions). | 15:01 |
| Calinou | I suspect they won't care :( | 15:01 |
| kuno | pehjota: that is only relevant if 1) gitorious actually had any contributions, 2) gitlab has any intention of using that code. | 15:02 |
| pehjota | kuno: I think they did have outside contributions. | 15:02 |
| fontana | pehjota: I bet they didn't have much outside contributions if any | 15:03 |
| fontana | AIUI it was not possible to build and install Gitorious from public source | 15:03 |
| fontana | I don't want to make accusations of course | 15:03 |
| pehjota | I quickly looked at the Git history, and it looked like there were external contributors. I didn't verify that, though. | 15:04 |
| pehjota | (And that was weeks ago, before this news.) | 15:04 |
| fontana | pehjota: probably more proprietary use of acquired-GPL-with-nonpwned-3rd-party-contributions occurs than is commonly thought | 15:05 |
| bkuhn | mlinksva: actually, I did want to write up the Kallithea story as a case study for the guide. Purely a tuit problem. | 15:06 |
| Calinou | Kallithea is ugly :/ | 15:07 |
| bkuhn | So, meanwhile, the discussion after that is somewhat off-topic (i.e., speculation about Github business strategy) | 15:07 |
| Calinou | if you want it to be competing, it has to be pretty and flat :P | 15:08 |
| bkuhn | The only place I can imagine this is relevant to copyleft.org is maybe we need a section in the guide that talks about the resiliency of multi-copyright held for-profit copylefted projects in face of acquisition. | 15:08 |
| bkuhn | (OTOH, this would be a bad case study: to comment off-topic for a moment, I think Gitlab bought Gitorious merely to kill it) | 15:08 |
| bkuhn | so the copyright central or non-centralness is moot: Gitorious developers are being paid not to write that type of software anymore, simply | 15:09 |
| fontana | bkuhn: seems likely to me too. Code probably of little or no interest, I'm sure Gitorious doesn't have significant migratable customer base (disclaimer: my current employer is customer of Gitorious) | 15:09 |
| bkuhn | I'm reminded of gov't subsidies to NOT grow a particular crop. :) | 15:10 |
| mlinksva | not the gitlab/github discussion, but 2nd part of my question about kallithea and rhodecode is relevant. offensive forking isn't much of a threat to entities that would take single copyight holder gpl'd code and make proprietary unless offensive fork is going to be used to compete with them as a business | 15:10 |
| bkuhn | good point, mlinksva | 15:10 |
| * fontana wonders whether RMS would object to phrase "offensive forking" | 15:10 | |
| mlinksva | is anyone going after rhodecode customers with kallithea then? :) | 15:12 |
| pehjota | Yeah, I doubt GitLab B.V. will do anything with the Gitorious codebase. | 15:13 |
| Calinou | GitLab is definitely technically superior to Gitorious | 15:13 |
| bkuhn | fontana: I admit I had to read the phrase 3 times before I realized mlinksva meant "offense vs. defense" and not "offensive vs. appropriate" | 15:22 |
| bkuhn | Your fork is offensive, sir! | 15:22 |
| bkuhn | wouldn't you prefer a spoon? | 15:22 |
| bkuhn | hahaha | 15:22 |
| bkuhn | Actually, if your fork violates GPL, it is pretty offensive (in that sense) | 15:24 |
| fontana | I remember when RMS talked about dispreferring "aggressive" in connection with patents because "aggressive" was seen as a positive quality | 15:24 |
| fontana | though I feel now that "positive aggressive" has faded at least somewhat. Looks a little weird now. | 15:26 |
| veleiro | Calinou: proof again that theres no point in building features and technical superiorities on top of a bad foundation | 15:34 |
| veleiro | Ive always said to use gitorious over gitlab for that reason, regardless of lack of features. its completely worthwhile to work on top of a good foundation in the long term | 15:34 |
| veleiro | this buyout shows another hole that bkuhn has made me realize about many copyright holders of a copylefted project, and why its important | 15:36 |
| fontana | veleiro: many copyright holders + no conventional CLA/CAA mechanism :) | 15:36 |
| veleiro | fontana: thanks, makes sense too | 15:44 |
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