Tuesday, 2015-03-03

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Calinoucheck out http://notabug.org/13:47
bkuhnActually, for the Guide, I will just go ahead and use Kallithea like I originally wanted to, but mlinksva talked me out of. :)13:48
bkuhnNow change in facts makes it clear we have to put that on the critical path for copyleft.org  before June.13:48
bkuhnI'm not going to use Abandon-ware. :)13:49
bkuhnnor Shareware, which is what GitLab ultimately is13:49
Calinouyeah, GitLab sucks actually due to that13:50
Calinouself-hosting Gitorious seems to be a bad idea13:50
Calinouas it'll probably be abandoned13:50
Calinou(it wasn't good software to begin with)13:50
mlinksvai still think using kallithea is a bad idea. my argument then was 1) bkuhn has no time for extra tasks 2) self-hosted kallithea is not an example that can be followed by almost anyone making a choice about where to put their project. gitorious.org hosting at the time was a viable choice (though still a hard one), and 3) goad bkuhn into thinking about the need for a nonprofit-run centralized git hosting service that offers github, bitbucket etc real14:14
mlinksva competition.14:14
mlinksvawhat has changed is gitorious.org hosting no longer an option14:14
mlinksvathe obvious thing is self-hosting gitlab ce, which lots of people are doing (ie is a vialbe option) and is probably a grave threat to github's business14:15
mlinksvai don't have any confidence kallithea is going to become a viable option without substantial resources dedicated to it, including selling it, and i see no plan to make that happen14:16
mlinksvaand kallithea is not even a good poster child for free-software-needs-free-tools, as the poster has a massive irony sticker on it (bitbucket)14:16
bkuhnmlinksva: if I have the false dichotomy of self hosted Gitlab vs. self-hosted Kallithea, I pick the latter for simple reasons that (a) I don't want to prop up Gitlab's enterprise business (notwithstanding threat to Github -- choice of masters is no choice at all) and (b) Kallithea is a Conservancy project I want to support.14:19
fontanathen Conservancy can say it "eats its own dog food" :/14:19
bkuhnIn many ways, Gitlab's business model is more insidious because it's shareware-like.  Github at least is cetralized and obviously proprietary.14:19
bkuhnfontana: I particularly hate that phrase now that I am a dog owner.  We buy pretty fancy food for our dogs.  But I turn my face away when I deflate the bag to tie it back up each morning when I feed them; I would *not* eat the stuff.14:20
fontanabkuhn: I've always hated the phrase. I think I first encountered it when working on the Blackboard re-exam at SFLC14:21
mindspillageFWIW, I heard a non-US person confused about the phrase, thinking it had a negative connotation--as if your product is crap ("dog food", basically inedible) and you're going to use it anyway because you're obligated to.14:23
mlinksvai have the impression self-hosting gitlab is trivial. is that the case for kallithea?  by not promoting a viable faif option, you are supporting both github and gitlab business of selling proprietary software. i'd love it if i were them to have free software advocates squirreled away not competing except expressively.  anyway i don't expect to convince you especially given that kallithea is a conservancy project. so i'd like to see instead a plan to14:23
mlinksva make kallithea competitive so as to not fall into trap of supporting github by not competing with it.14:23
mlinksvai have the impression self-hosting gitlab is trivial. is that the case for kallithea? by not promoting a viable faif option, you are supporting both github and gitlab business of selling proprietary software. i'd love it if i were them to have free software advocates squirreled away not competing except expressively. anyway i don't expect to convince you especially given that kallithea is a conservancy project. so i'd like to see instead a plan to make14:23
mlinksva kallithea competitive so as to not fall into trap of supporting github by not competing with it.14:23
fontanamindspillage: it took me a long time to understand the phrase for that reason, and I am a native speaker :)14:23
mlinksvaoops connection problem apoligies for dupe14:24
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mlinksvabtw any plan to include offensive faif fork strategy in the guide? with kallithea being the case study. relatedly, is anyone making a business of kallithea? selling services to rhodecode customers presumably?14:37
* fontana initially assumed mlinksva was referring to notion of fontana fork of Guide hosted on github :)14:39
veleiroDid gitorious developers give up copyrights to Gitlab? I dont understand the announcement besides a victory dance for Gitlab?14:39
mlinksvai suspect acquiring customers > acquiring copyright in this case14:40
kunoveleiro: This seems more about gitlab buying gitorious' customers, I don't think they need or want tho gitorious codebase.14:40
fontanaveleiro: I suspect they are acquiring Gitorious copyrights. Would be strange if not.14:46
Calinouhaha, the background image of that blog post is from Unsplash, I recognize it14:56
pehjotaI don't think Gitorious had a CLA or CAA in place; did it?  If not, the Gitorious AS copyrights can't be used by GitLab B.V. to make non-free versions of Gitorious, without removing contributed code (nor could Gitorious AS make non-AGPL-licensed versions).15:01
CalinouI suspect they won't care :(15:01
kunopehjota: that is only relevant if 1) gitorious actually had any contributions, 2) gitlab has any intention of using that code.15:02
pehjotakuno: I think they did have outside contributions.15:02
fontanapehjota: I bet they didn't have much outside contributions if any15:03
fontanaAIUI it was not possible to build and install Gitorious from public source15:03
fontanaI don't want to make accusations of course15:03
pehjotaI quickly looked at the Git history, and it looked like there were external contributors.  I didn't verify that, though.15:04
pehjota(And that was weeks ago, before this news.)15:04
fontanapehjota: probably more proprietary use of acquired-GPL-with-nonpwned-3rd-party-contributions occurs than is commonly thought15:05
bkuhnmlinksva: actually, I did want to write up the Kallithea story as a case study for the guide.  Purely a tuit problem.15:06
CalinouKallithea is ugly :/15:07
bkuhnSo, meanwhile, the discussion after that is somewhat off-topic  (i.e., speculation about Github business strategy)15:07
Calinouif you want it to be competing, it has to be pretty and flat :P15:08
bkuhnThe only place I can imagine this is relevant to copyleft.org is maybe we need a section in the guide that talks about the resiliency of multi-copyright held for-profit copylefted projects  in face of acquisition.15:08
bkuhn(OTOH, this would be a bad case study: to comment off-topic for a moment, I think Gitlab bought Gitorious merely to kill it)15:08
bkuhnso the copyright central or non-centralness is moot: Gitorious developers are being paid not to write that type of software anymore, simply15:09
fontanabkuhn: seems likely to me too. Code probably of little or no interest, I'm sure Gitorious doesn't have significant migratable customer base (disclaimer: my current employer is customer of Gitorious)15:09
bkuhnI'm reminded of gov't subsidies to NOT grow a particular crop. :)15:10
mlinksvanot the gitlab/github discussion, but 2nd part of my question about kallithea and rhodecode is relevant. offensive forking isn't much of a threat to entities that would take single copyight holder gpl'd code and make proprietary unless offensive fork is going to be used to compete with them as a business15:10
bkuhngood point, mlinksva15:10
* fontana wonders whether RMS would object to phrase "offensive forking"15:10
mlinksvais anyone going after rhodecode customers with kallithea then? :)15:12
pehjotaYeah, I doubt GitLab B.V. will do anything with the Gitorious codebase.15:13
CalinouGitLab is definitely technically superior to Gitorious15:13
bkuhnfontana: I admit I had to read the phrase 3 times before I realized mlinksva meant "offense vs. defense" and not "offensive vs. appropriate"15:22
bkuhnYour fork is offensive, sir!15:22
bkuhnwouldn't you prefer a spoon?15:22
bkuhnActually, if your fork violates GPL, it is pretty offensive (in that sense)15:24
fontanaI remember when RMS talked about dispreferring "aggressive" in connection with patents because "aggressive" was seen as a positive quality15:24
fontanathough I feel now that "positive aggressive" has faded at least somewhat. Looks a little weird now.15:26
veleiroCalinou: proof again that theres no point in building features and technical superiorities on top of a bad foundation15:34
veleiroIve always said to use gitorious over gitlab for that reason, regardless of lack of features.  its completely worthwhile to work on top of a good foundation in the long term15:34
veleirothis buyout shows another hole that bkuhn has made me realize about many copyright holders of a copylefted project, and why its important15:36
fontanaveleiro: many copyright holders + no conventional CLA/CAA mechanism :)15:36
veleirofontana: thanks, makes sense too15:44
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