Thursday, 2015-01-08

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ndsmithwould that be a "hostile" fork? =P15:16
bkuhnndsmith: what's this in reference to?15:21
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ndsmithbkuhnIdle: in reference to fontana's jest about forking two days ago16:45
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bkuhnndsmith: oh,  I think fontana would do a friendly temporary fork16:46
bkuhnFrankly, if fontana wrote all of the tutorial from scratch and covered all the same material, it'd be better than what we have now.16:46
bkuhnI'd happily bet a large sum on the over on 5 years that Fontana does this. :)16:47
bkuhner, "bet on it taking more than 5 years for fontana to do this"16:47
bkuhnIt's almost a freeroll for me.16:47
bkuhnIf I lost the money, it'd mean we have a much better tutorial. :)16:47
bkuhnFrankly, even if I could do a full rewrite it'd be better.16:48
fontanabkuhn: I might do that16:48
bkuhnfontana: I hope you do, but I doubt you will, honestly. :)16:48
fontanabkuhn: but I would wonder whether to write it from your perspective :)16:48
* bkuhn hopes my goading of fontana will inspire him to do it. :)16:48
* fontana feels goaded16:48
bkuhnwell, I think the guide should be from the perspective of "copyleft advocates".16:48
ndsmithmaybe the overlords at HP have some need of a fontana-fied version16:49
bkuhnFact is, there are fewer and fewer of those in the world.16:49
fontanabkuhn: Right now it seems very much personally your perspective (not that that is bad)16:49
bkuhnfontana: yeah, I'd like to fix that.16:50
bkuhnI mean, it's mostly written by me, so it's mostly in my voice.16:50
bkuhnand when I've incorporated CC BY SA texts, I've put them in my voice.16:50
fontanabkuhn: e.g. RMS would write some of it quite differently16:50
bkuhnoh, but I don't think RMS would do a better job, mainly because, as the author of many of the copyleft licenses, his perspective is unique, and I don't think he can succeed in explaining copyleft to others in the way someone who DIDN'T write copyleft can16:51
bkuhne.g., I'm the wrong person to write the section on Affero GPL.16:51
bkuhnIn part because I understand Affero by its nature in a way no one else does.16:51
bkuhnRMS understand GPL itself in the same way16:52
fontanabkuhn: I came up with an algorithm to figure out AGPLv3 interpretive problems16:52
bkuhndid you write it down?16:52
fontanabkuhn: well I shared it with tieguy16:52
fontanaHe was asking me something about AGPL16:52
fontanaI think he disagreed with something Eben had said a year ago16:52
fontanaYou won't like it though16:52
bkuhnfontana: ugh, that's unfortunate.  Not sure we want to be feeding the new stuff to GPL violator defenders. ;)16:53
bkuhnat the very least, we should vet it internally first16:53
fontanawell actually I think that meta-issue came up16:53
bkuhnhow so?16:53
fontanaThe algorithm is this: Imagine RMS, bkuhn, Evan Prodromou, and Chris Webber in a room.16:53
fontanaIf Eben tries to enter, keep him out.16:54
fontanaLock them in the room16:54
fontanaRequire them to come to consensus about the AGPL issue16:54
bkuhnoh, I thought you were talking about something serious.16:54
bkuhnI don't mind who you tell that to. :)16:54
* bkuhn should have figured fontana was merely setting up a joke.16:54
fontanawhere: RMS gets 2 votes, bkuhn gets 1 vote, Evan gets 3 votes and Chris Webber gets 6 votes16:54
paultagI believe in this world16:54
fontanaI think those are the right weights16:54
bkuhnI think Evan should get 2 and Christ 316:54
fontanaI'll have to check16:54
bkuhnChris rather16:54
paultagChrist only gets 3? :)16:55
fontanaChris has to get the most votes, and you (bkuhn) have to get the least :)16:55
bkuhnfontana: I'm ok with that.16:55
fontanaIt's somewhat unfair16:55
fontanatieguy didn't think it was too funny :)16:55
bkuhnI just think Evan and Chris have too much block16:55
bkuhnRMS and I together should be able to override if either Chris or evan agrees with us.16:55
bkuhnas you have it, a RMS/bkuhn/Evan block deadlocks against Chris16:56
paultagsounds correct :)16:56
paultagChris for BDFL16:56
mindspillagehahah, nice.16:56
bkuhnI think Chris would agree he has too much power in that scenario.16:56
fontanabkuhn: I think I had someone breaking ties but I forget who that was16:56
bkuhnfontana: See, the Affero GPL doesn't make sense because it's never been enforced systematically like GPL has.16:57
bkuhnCC BY SA has the same problem in my view.16:57
bkuhnI"m trying to figure out how to cover that in the Guide.16:57
paultagI pung Chrus :)16:57
paultagwe'll find out if he thinks he holds too much power >:)16:57
bkuhnI suppose if I have a fundamental bias about copyleft, I think no clause makes sense in the abstract: only enforcement matters.16:58
fontanaOh here's the original version I sent to tieguy:16:58
bkuhnLike the USA Constitution: The freedom from self incrimination only makes real sense under Miranda.16:58
fontanaThe way to interpret AGPLv3 is: imagine RMS, Bradley, Chris Webber,16:58
fontanaand Evan Prodromou locked in a room for an hour or so and figure out16:58
fontanathe conclusion they'd come to, if you assign 2 votes to RMS, 1 vote to16:58
fontanaBradley, 3 votes to Evan, and 6 votes to Chris, with you casting16:58
fontanatie-breaking votes. :)16:58
fontanaI don't actually think tieguy should have the tie-breaking vote of course16:59
bkuhnNot sure the guy who believes that Binaries aren't derivative works of source code should ever cast tie-breaking votes . :)16:59
fontanaIn the context at hand it was tieguy struggling with some issue of AGPL interpretation16:59
fontanaI also think keeping Eben out of the room is very important16:59
bkuhner, rather, who believes that binaries are verbatim copies of source code.16:59
bkuhnfontana: why do you say that?17:00
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bkuhnparoneayea is the Kibo of Affero GPL.17:00
paroneayeawhat's this now17:00
paultagparoneayea: >:)17:00
fontanaparoneayea: algorithm for AGPLv3 interpretation17:00
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* bkuhn thinks fontana /invite'd paroneayea 17:00
paultagI did17:00
paultagI said I did17:00
bkuhnah, ok, close enough. :)17:00
bkuhnoh, sorry, I missed it in backlog.17:01
fontanaThe way to interpret AGPLv3 is: imagine RMS, Bradley, Chris Webber,17:01
fontana<fontana> and Evan Prodromou locked in a room for an hour or so and figure out17:01
fontana<fontana> the conclusion they'd come to, if you assign 2 votes to RMS, 1 vote to17:01
fontana<fontana> Bradley, 3 votes to Evan, and 6 votes to Chris, with you casting17:01
fontana<fontana> tie-breaking votes. :)17:01
paroneayeaI'm a science module?17:01
bkuhnfontana: I think this joke has run its course.17:01
fontana"you" is the person facing the AGPLv3 interpretive issue17:01
fontanabkuhn: agreed17:01
fontanaI don't think it belongs in the copyleft guide17:01
bkuhnparoneayea: I mean this Kibo:
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bkuhnfontana: maybe we need a copyleft humor section. :)  But, as I wrote that, I thought about how quickly the GNU Humor section became.  I think Internet humor memes now move to fast to attempt to document them unless that's your primary purpose (e.g., knowyourmeme)17:03
fontanabkuhn: I found it rather shocking what you said about Meeker advising burying the GPL source offer17:03
bkuhnfontana: Meeker & tieguy also told me that they believe binaries are verbatim copies of source code.17:03
fontanabkuhn: yeah I remember your role in using Internet humor memes at sflc in #firm17:03
bkuhn(well, not categorically.  They argued that it's true in the case where you run only  "./configure; make; make install" from upstream sources.  Of course, they're wrong.)17:04
bkuhnfontana: this is precisely why we need the Guide though; (not for the Intenet meme thing but) for assuring there is a single source document that explains what those who support copyleft in all its forms believe is correct interpretation.17:05
bkuhnObviously they won't all agree, but it should state what most believe with footnotes etc. for the dissenting opinons.17:05
bkuhnPeople like Meeker have such loud microphones, with their books, and law journal articles, etc.17:06
bkuhnThey are setting what is commonly believed to be correct, and we copyleft advocates have hiterto (pre doing nothing to stop it.17:06
bkuhnIt's currently like a world where there's only Fox News.17:06
fontanabkuhn: except now KFC and Mark Radcliffe are going around giving talks on the "two guides"17:07
bkuhnwell, Fox News and Democracy Now!, I guess (the latter being FSF's website)17:07
bkuhnfontana: where did you hear about such talks?17:07
fontanabkuhn: I get spam from Radcliffe, Black Duck etc17:07
bkuhnCan you send me a copy of the spams that mention
fontanabkuhn: It sort of shows they're running out of material17:08
fontanabkuhn: they don't use that name for it, but sure17:08
bkuhnHuh?  How do you know they're talking about at all then?17:08
fontanabkuhn: It's really obvious17:08
bkuhnOk, so forward me some of these, please.17:08
fontanaFrom "Inhouse Counsel Open Source Software Legal Breakfast":17:09
bkuhnBut keep in mind: what's obvious to you is almost assuredly not obvious to most of the people whose email addresses appear in such wide-reaching marketing databases....17:09
fontanaThe law governing open source licenses is moving rapidly. In the last forty five days, the Software Conservancy [SIC] and the Software Freedom Law Center have provided guides on GPL compliance and two recent decisions in the Versata family of cases on issues interpreting the GPLv2. DLA Piper is sponsoring a breakfast to discuss these issues on [blah...]"17:10
bkuhnI agree that reads in a "running out of material" sort of way.17:11
bkuhnI'm annoyed on behalf of FSF.  You're right that the "Software Conservancy [sic]" Guide must mean, which is co-sponsored by FSF and Conservancy.17:12
fontanabkuhn: I told you I had to explain to Radcliffe in November that the 2 guides weren't put out by the same organization.17:12
bkuhnfontana: did you write back to point out the inaccuracy, both in Conservancy's name and failure to mention FSF?17:12
fontanabkuhn: not really worth my time17:12
bkuhnfontana: well, that email goes to many people.  It's a matter of advocacy for this project.  I'd appreciate if you'd take the time to do it.17:13
bkuhnObviously Radcliffe, another GPL violator defense attorney, isn't my type of person, but OTOH, he has a wide network of people who listen to him, and I don't believe he wants to be incorrect on purpose.  He made a mistake that can be corrected.17:13
fontanaI think he probably called it the Software Conservancy on purpose, sort of like how some people intentionally call someone by an incorrect name17:13
fontanaDoes Radcliffe actually do GPL violation defense? Clearly Meeker does17:15
bkuhnfontana: I've been up against Radcliffe in two different enforcement matters, one of which was a lawsuit.17:15
fontanabkuhn: ah, I did not know that.17:15
bkuhnwell, I wasn't "up against him", exactly.  He was the lawyer for Defendant and I was an executive at the Plaintiff org.17:15
bkuhnfontana: you did know that, I told you, you just forgot. :)17:16
fontanabkuhn: weird wild stuff17:16
bkuhnfontana: I go by the rule of to never assume malice in any action that can be explained with incompetence.  Getting an org's name wrong and failing to mention a joint-sponsor of a project looks more like incompetent prep rather than malice.  I'd appreciate you clarifying things for Radcliffe in email.  Feel free to cc me!17:17
fontanabkuhn: the email was from early December. Maybe if he does a repeat17:17
bkuhnfontana: when was the event?17:18
fontanabkuhn: The Silicon Valley Open Source Breakfast (or something along those lines)17:18
bkuhnnot where, when. :)17:18
fontanaSome time in December but I think these things are held monthly17:19
bkuhnWell, it's recent enough IMO that writing back to correct the error is good, and useful advocacy for, esp. given that writing such an email is a 30 second time investment17:22
fontanabkuhn: I find it difficult dealing with Radcliffe. It saps my energy.17:27
fontanaI've told this to other people.17:27
fontanaI think it is a great talent of his17:27
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