Tuesday, 2015-01-06

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bkuhnmlinksva: yes, as you can see at https://github.com/bkuhn/copyleft-tutorial , I keep a backup copy of this project's repository on GitHub.  As it states there: "This repository is on GitHub as a read only mirror; the material is actually developed on Gitorious at: https://gitorious.org/copyleft-org/tutorial/ . Please submit merge requests there, not here."09:10
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warpbkuhn: are you considering moving your stuff from gitorious to kallithea?10:05
bkuhnwarp: It was an open action item to do, mlinksva talked me out of it during the internal Conservancy discussions before the copyleft.org launch, b/c there was so much other stuff to do and the repository was already on gitorious.10:05
bkuhnIf someone wanted to volunteer to do the sysadmin/configuration (er, sorry, I forget my Millennial-speak: dev ops) work involved to get Kallithea set up for copyleft.org, I'd be happy to provide access to a VM for that purpose.10:06
warpsee, kallithea should offer hosted versions :)   If even sfconservancy doesn't have the time to start using it because setting up stuff is too much work, I expect everyone else will also similarly just use github/bitbucket/etc...10:08
warpbkuhn: I understand the decision, but I'm worried about the message it sends.10:09
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bkuhnkuno: (aka warp) I'm not sure it sends a bad message at all.  gitorious *is* Free Software.  Ideally, we'd use Conservancy projects for everything Conservancy does.  We can't *always* do that (e.g., Conservancy uses SVN for its main internal records repository, for various reasons I've been meaning to blog about, but Git, Mercurial, and Darcs don't work for the specific use case)10:12
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kunogitorious is licensed correctly, but getting it running is enough of a challenge that very few folks actually get the benefits of it being free software.  In that sense it seems a bad example of a free software project.10:15
bkuhnkuno: I'm generally in agreement that Kallithea is "better", on many different criteria.  The only litmus test, IMO, is: "Is it immorally licensed"?  Gitorious isn't.  I agree that Gitorious AB could do a much better job as a collaborative project.  But, they are doing *much* better than Github.  Github is mostly proprietary software.10:28
* kuno nods10:29
bkuhnI don't believe in relativism, I believe in binary decisions on this front: "Does the software adequately respect software freedom?"  I believe in my heart of hearts it's a question that can be answered in a single binary digit.  Just like "does it comply with copyleft requirements?" :)10:29
bkuhnI mean, having MORE than a binary digit is useful in the real world, but "will I rely on this software as a key piece of infrastructure for a Free Software / Free Culture project?", the binary answers are adequate for that.10:30
bkuhn(I'd note, BTW, that meta-Kallithea (i.e., Kallithea's own development) is itself is still relying on BitBucket, which is just as proprietary as Github. :)10:30
kunoright, for me the binary answer in the case of gitorious is non-free, because I tried to get it running and failed.  So I would prefer not to rely on it.10:30
bkuhnkuno: I do know one person who got it running: Justin Baugh.  He said it was "quite a bear" but he got it.10:31
kunoyes, I'm not claiming it is impossible.  just impossible for me within the limited time-frame I budgetted for it :)10:31
bkuhnBut, kuno, I need volunteers to help.  I agree with you in general (we're disagreeing on one specific point).  Do you have time to volunteer to be copyleft.org's Kallithea sysadmin/devops person?10:31
kunoprobably not, I can certainly not make any promises at this time.  However, I'll allocate some time this weekend to install kallithea myself to get a better idea of the work involved.10:33
bkuhnkuno: sure, anything you can give would be most appreciated.  Keep it in mind!10:36
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ndsmithdevops *sigh* ;-)10:52
bkuhnndsmith: well, it's what the kids are saying.  sysadmin low-self-esteem is historical going back to the 1970s at least... the "get an award just for participation" generation of couldn't possibly stand that level of self-loathing, hence devops.10:54
bkuhnI try to "say what the kidz is saying"10:54
ndsmithHeh. :-)10:54
bkuhnTo quote Dr. Evil: "I'm Hip, I'm With It!"10:54
ndsmithGood strategy, generally.10:54
kunoI always considered sysadmin and devops to be very different things.10:55
bkuhnWe're heading way off topic now, but:10:56
ndsmithMy critique of the devops philosophy is that a fusion between development and operations implies to me that the code is not properly QA'd and can only be run by people with insiders' knowledge ;-) (apropos of gitorious discussion above)10:56
bkuhnkuno: I think most sysadmins generally have always had to do small amounts of development as a necessity.10:56
bkuhne.g., lots of early GNU software was  improved by sysadmins who needed it to do their jobs.10:56
ndsmithI think that is true.10:57
bkuhnConsider Perl: Larry Wall wrote Perl when he was a sysadmin: sed/awk wasn't cutting it.10:57
bkuhnLarry never was bothered by being a sysadmin at JPL.10:57
bkuhnHe just did his job, it included inventing a new langauge.10:57
bkuhnI really think devops just describes was sysadmins always had to do anyway, it's just a generational mindset difference.10:57
bkuhnAnyway That's like, my opinion, man.10:57
ndsmithIt's also a great buzzword for recruiting! :-)10:58
bkuhnActually, on the recruiting side, I get the impression it might be used for subtle ageism.10:58
bkuhnbut that may just be my own fears impacting my views. ;)10:58
ndsmiththe other implication of devops, I think, is that new technologies like containerization make it easier for developers to do operations10:59
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kunodevops to me implies that the state of the systems being adminned is in version control (i.e. probably using some kind of configuration management, maybe automated ways to spin up instances based on load, etc..)11:00
bkuhnkuno: huh, interesting.  I was using version control to deal with sysadmin work as far back as the early 1990s.11:00
bkuhnI guess that means I invented devops. ;)11:00
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ndsmithI'd never heard of Kallithea11:27
ndsmithbonus points for having a greek project name11:27
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bkuhnfontana: so did you get an changes done during your mandatory shutdown? :)19:36
fontanabkuhn: no, sorry I didn't19:36
bkuhnThanks for trying. :)19:36
fontanabkuhn: I didn't really try too much. I was actually tempted to just fork the book and do a total rewrite :)20:01
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bkuhnfontana: I don't mind forks.  Unlike others may feel, CC-BY-SA compliance is just perfect for me, so feel free to fork compliantly with CC-BY-SA  and go for it.20:03
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